E08: The Bizarre Things We See

In this candid lead-in to an upcoming series featuring guest judges, hosts Janet Boyle and Bob Kipnis pull back the curtain on family court to reveal what actually happens behind bench doors—and what you should never do in front of a judge. From unbelievable Zoom courtroom blunders to the high cost of hiding assets or fighting over trivial items, Janet and Bob explain how judges assess credibility, why financial deception always backfires, and how viewing marital property objectively protects your financial future. Tune in for an entertaining, practical breakdown of courtroom etiquette, asset division realities, and the strategic importance of understanding judicial expectations. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everyone. We're back for another episode of It's Only Human Nature. Let's boil it down. Once again, it's Bobby and I to talk to you about what we're good at and what we know about, and to hopefully entertain and educate you on those topics. Today we are going to talk about the things that we have seen occur in court. This is a lead-in to um having a several, well, a couple, at least one, probably two judges from our local court system come in and talk about what they have seen. So we wanted to talk to you about what we tell our clients, what we see other people do, uh, what we've seen our own clients do, that you should not do if you ever have to go to court. So we're gonna start with if you go to court, it is a place of respect. You may not like the judge, you may not like your soon-to-be ex-spouse, or your already ex-spouse, you may not like their lawyer, you may not even like your own lawyer. Okay, but it is a place of respect. We do not yell, we do not swear, and you don't know how many times I have stood before judges who I really don't respect and thought to myself what I really want to say and then what I actually can say. So it's it's a place where there are rules where we are all governed by this code of conduct where how you dress, how you act, what you say is judged. That person that sits up on that pedestal is a judge. They're not only judging the evidence, they're not only judging the facts, they're judging you. They're judging me. So let's talk about some of the things that you should do and some of the stories that we've seen about people who did not follow their lawyers' advice. Bobby?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Well, I'm grateful to be here. I think it's important to note that with the advent of Zoom, court looks a lot different, but it's the same. And a lot of people get um relaxed in their homes when they're on Zoom. I had a uh I was handling a moving violation for my daughter, actually, and there was a guy on Zoom vacuuming in his tidy-whiteys, and the judge just was screaming at the guy to turn off his camera. Um I think the judges, you're you hit it on the head. They're assessing credibility, they're assessing demeanor. You have to behave in court, you have to tow the line, they're watching everything.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Not to be vulgar, but I was actually sitting in Zoom court, which thankfully doesn't exist as much anymore. You know, now it's more just for statuses and things like that. But back in the day when we were actually doing really things, there was a gentleman who decided to use the lavatory. He was urinating, okay, and everybody in the waiting room was listening. Okay. And his wife was yelling at him to turn off his microphone as we all sat there going, how long is this going to take? And how much longer do we actually have to listen to this? So, yeah, okay. I've watched people in Zoom from their bed. Lawyers in the bed, okay. Try, you know, talking to a judge. Really? You want that to be your lawyer?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Trying to film from the waist up.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, exactly. You know, but it's crazy. But even in the actual courtroom, okay. And I Bob and I were talking earlier about the things that we thought we could communicate to you. Let's be honest, a lot of cases drag on because one side or the other has some mental health issues, and it can really throw a you know a wrench in the works for sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Thanks. I have picking up on that, I have a case or I had a case, it's over with now, where the one of the parties disappeared off the face of the earth, and then we start tracking him via the credit cards, and we could see all his spending. He went on a tour of the west of the United States, drained all their bank accounts, and then came up with the excuse that he was bipolar and it wasn't his fault. Yep. The judge picked up on that and ordered a evaluation off him, a 215 evaluation, it's called.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

It's a mental health evaluation.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Right. Can he participate adequately in the litigation? The answer, of course, he could. If he could do drugs and pay for women and all the nefarious things he was doing, he can certainly participate in a court case.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I mean, the the people who clear out the bank accounts, you know, where all of a sudden you somebody you know goes to write a check or whatever, and everything's bouncing, and all the money is gone. I mean, everything is gone. And you know, that's that's never fun. That causes emergency motions and the money is 2026.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

There's an electronic footprint on virtually everything due.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

You're gonna get caught.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

You're gonna get caught, you're gonna be ordered to account for every nickel, you're gonna be ordered to replace it, or you're gonna be charged with that money in the ultimate settlement. So you don't really gain much.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Right. The power of the subpoena, we will find you.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah, exactly. We get every credit card, every bank account, every everything. That's what we do. I had one where the what the wife had been evicted from the home because she had mental health issues, so she bought the house next door. And then she built a wall between the two homes, okay? But she built a little gate on her side so that she could kind of sneak back and forth and do bad things to the husband's home where the kids lived, and it was crazy. But she was unrepresented for a while. And the judge had ordered a retainer to be paid by the husband to her lawyers, and she just never hired a lawyer. So I'm in court one day and I'm listening to this case, and I was not the lawyer at that point. And um all of a sudden the wife the judge says, Well, I gave you money to hire a lawyer. Why haven't you haven't you hired a lawyer? And she turns around and looks at the entire courtroom and says, Who wants me? And I was like, Not me, not me, please, no. And then I run by complete happenstance, her husband ended up calling my firm, you know, the the that day. And we ended up representing him moving forward. But yeah, I mean, you know, some of the things you see. I had we had a case I know you were involved in, where the wife showed up in court one day as if she was going out clubbing. Okay. You know, very short skirt, you know, very low-cut blouse, uh, her hair piled up on top of her head, the makeup, the jewelry. I mean, look great for going out in the evening, but not appropriate for a ninth rate court appearance. And her lawyer actually went out to her own car and got her client, like a blazer to put on over her outfit to at least look somewhat, you know, pr respectable.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Yeah, some judges take offense to it.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Well, I remember there was a judge that we had for years who used to do seminars for the young lawyers in our division, and she brought in another judge to talk to the young lawyers. And what did she tell the young lawyers? Don't wear low-cut blouses because I can see straight down. I'm sitting up there, I can see straight down. So stop and think about that. A male judge can be sitting up there looking straight down your blouse. So if you're a litigant, okay, and you're gonna be in court, don't really wear a low-cut blouse, really skip the low the the mini skirt. Although I think you have a story about um, it was it you or somebody else in our firm who actually told their client to wear the mini skirt because the judge in that case actually like guilty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

But there are some judges who are perceived to, I don't know, favor those things.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Uh, you know, so yeah, so it's it's you know, but that's not really what the court is supposed to be about.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

No.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

And you know, other people feel that they're gonna get an advantage if they lie, if they um discombobulate, if they just what's the word I'm looking for, where you don't you you're hiding things and you you're just not being totally honest with the court. So what happens is is that, and and I was telling this story to somebody the other day. I had a case where we kept asking the husband to produce documents to prove that he had owned the property, a lot of property, prior to the marriage. And he kept saying they didn't exist, they didn't exist, they didn't exist. So I'm in the middle of the trial, and he's on the witness stand and I'm cross-examining him, and he kept looking down in his lap.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

He's reading from something?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah, he's reading from something. And I looked at him and I said, you know, he was a doctor. I said, Dr. Sarza, what are you looking at? And he said, nothing. And I said, Judge, you know, because the judge can see the witness. And she said, you know, please show counsel. So he hands me the documents. It's everything that I had been asking for for over a year that he kept telling us did not exist. And I was apoplectic. Okay. I mean, I was because we had wasted all that time, all that money. We're in the middle of a trial. Okay, and here he is with the documents in his lap. And so I so the judge called a recess, took the lawyers back, and you know, said, What were what was your client's last, you know, demand? And I told her what my client was looking for, and she told the other side, pay it. Now, my client would have never gotten 100% of what she was looking for at a trial. Okay, but she did because the guy had lied and tried to cheat his way into getting something that, you know, he could have gotten.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Thankfully, in my practice, the majority of the time when you try and scam, you don't win.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Right. We had a case where, you know, we we represented a a a client um who um was not totally honest. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

And not a hundred percent forthcoming.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Right. Well, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Which you need to be a hundred percent forthcoming with your attorney.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah. He or she can then filter what's disseminated, but he was not not only not forthcoming with us, but he wasn't forthcoming with the court and or anybody else. And at trial he got caught. And by then he had retained new attorney because we weren't, you know, particularly happy with him, and he got caught. And boy, did that judge hurt him. I mean, the result of that trial was so negative to him, you know. I mean, in terms of having to pay his wife's fees, in terms of all of the presumptions being against him. So everything that he tried to hide, everything that he tried to gain was just a waste of time and energy and cost him more money in the long run. So, you know, yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

That's what invariably happens.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah. So, I mean, are we telling you that you should not be strategic? No, we're not telling you that. There are ways to protect yourself, there are ways to be, you know, to gain advantages by being prepared, by being honest with your client, your lawyers, by coming forward and giving all the information and and and presenting it in the right way, okay, and being the one who appears to be telling the truth, to be the one who appears to be the one who is being not only honest, but also transparent. All these things are what ultimately gets you the results that you're looking for. Not trying to game the other side, not trying to mislead the judge.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Right, because at least early on in the litigation, you don't know what your soon-to-be ex-spouse has been doing to gather information behind your back. I I've had a lot of times people come in, especially men, and say, Oh, she doesn't know what's going on. Not true. When they know they want a divorce, men or women, they start gathering information.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Right, right. But then you also see the people who want to fight just for the sake of fighting. And I think we mentioned this in one of our prior episodes very briefly. But this is one of the things we want to ask the court when we have some of the judges on, um, which will be in the next couple of episodes. In that, is is what do they see in terms of credibility of witnesses, how you know you should present yourself, all of those things that we just kind of briefly touched on. But also, you know, some of the crazy things that people fight over that end up meaning nothing. I mean, I watched a case one time, it was not mine, but it was a very, very well-known divorce lawyer who was up there arguing for the possession of the plant. Yes, a plant. Okay. They were spending tens of thousands of dollars to get possession of a ficus movie.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Was there anything special about it?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Big special marijuana plant?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

No, no, couldn't smoke it, couldn't eat it, just the plant. It was just, yeah, she liked it, he wanted it, you know, that kind of a thing. Um, we we've touched briefly on dogs, okay, and and just the silly things that people will fight about. We all understand, okay, that your children are important to you. We all understand that you're home, okay, and and protecting your future, okay, is important to you. But as we've said before, the fighting between yourselves over these trivial matters. Number one, it is not financially logical.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

I tell all my clients, you don't want to pay me to fight over your furniture and furnishings.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

That well, number one, that's true. But the other thing is, stop and think about what the judges think about this, okay? Because the judges are up there. They're dealing with children who are being abused, they're dealing with spouses who are being abused, they're dealing with people who don't have enough money to put food on the table and trying to figure out how to do that. They're they're they've got houses and foreclosure, you know, in some cases you know, they have spouses that have killed each other. Okay. I mean, they're dealing with truly, truly emergent issues. And when you come in and take their time to argue about a plant, you know, or the dog or whatever it is, okay. What do you think they're gonna think when you really are on trial on the big things? Will they hold it against you? Maybe. Okay, that's what we'll find out. Because I want you to think that they're just humans. You know, a couple of the judges that we're gonna have on, I've known since they were practitioners. We were all young lawyers together, you know, we've known each other forever. And they're just like you, like me, like Bobby, like anybody else, okay? They have good days, they have bad days, okay? They're people, they're people, and what I always tell my clients is you really want that stranger making a you know deciding your life. I mean, really? I mean, sometimes we have to go there, okay. But I I want you to stop and think about that. And I'm gonna have a couple of really good judges tell you what they think, okay? But they're strangers to you.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I've had them flip coins and say, first pick, second two, and then alternate, go around the house, put yellow stickies on what's yours, filament, and take it.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Exactly. And that's what how personal property is oftentimes divided. Nobody cares about your your your sentimental value. Okay, nobody cares about any of that. You know, it's it's all about flip a coin, okay? First, second, first, second, first, second.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Right. Courts like it cleaner when they're just quantifying assets and dividing them.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

And they're putting money values on them. Okay. They don't care whose car it is, it's 25,000 and 75,000. That's all. Okay. The house, I I had a lawyer years ago, older lawyer, tell me, we have to disavow the women of the bricks. Okay. Now, okay, what that means is is that you oftentimes have the wife in particular, can be the husband also, who sees the residence as their home. There's the sentimental value where they raise their children, where the kids, you know, with the marks on the wall for how tall the kids got, all those things. When in reality, in a divorce, it's $897,500. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Right. And it's creating two households now. So much of the time it's got to be sold.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Right. And even in very high-level divorces, you have to sell the home the house for a number of reasons. Might be too big, okay. Might be that the kids are gone and there's no reason for it anymore. You know, I'm dealing with one right now where they have two very, very large, expensive homes. Each are worth, you know, in excess of about five million dollars. And the the husband's business, he just lost his main customer. Okay. I mean, they can't afford it any longer. So, you know, they're both gonna be sold. And so, you know, think about all the things that can happen, no matter how much money, no matter what how big the house is right now. You know, there's all things things change when you're going through divorce. They just do. You need to understand that you need to change with it. And we're gonna ask the judges about some of that. Um, what do they think you should be prepared to change? What do they want to hear from you? I have spouses who say, I'm not going back to work. I'm not gonna. Okay, that's fine. That's your choice. We cannot force you to get a job. But what we can do is say, if you went back to work, you could earn this amount of money. So we're gonna say you've got that amount of money coming in every month.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Right, imputation of income.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Right. Yeah, and we're gonna ask the judges, how do you do that? What's your thoughts on that? Are you going to impute income to a 75-year-old woman?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

There's a trend amongst judges, I believe, that even with the non-working spouse, they impute a minimum wage of $40,000 on them when making the maintenance calculation that we've discussed here.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Right. And that's for people who don't have skills. If you've got somebody who has an MBA or who's an MD or, you know, those types of things, even if they haven't worked in years, they can.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Right. It begs the question of how much is the most you've earned during any calendar year in your marriage. And then base it off of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah. And you know, some of the might have been the first two years of your marriage, but you know, you can do that. There's vocational experts that'll come and do that. Some judges believe them, some judges don't. Some judges are in favor of imputing income, some aren't. Um, you know, it's it's something that, you know, we'll talk to a couple judges about that. But, you know, you could have been married for 20 years and not have worked. I had a judge just recently. My client was in her 70s. Okay. The kids had been grown, they had been married for 35, 40 years, and she made a comment about how my client could have gone back to work after the children had been, you know, had finished school. Okay. Well, yeah, that had been 20 years earlier. What in God's name does that have to do with what we were dealing with now at 73 years old? Okay. I have no idea what the point of that was, but she believed that my client was somehow at fault for not having gone back to work 20 years earlier, despite the fact that the husband was independently wealthy and had a good job and had supported them, and that my client did everything for him. And that was their agreement. And she was being punished at age 73, okay, for not having gone back to work at age 53. And it's like, I still don't understand that comment, but you know, that's what I mean. Judges are human, judges are different. You know, we had the opposite side of the coin in that in another case that you were involved with this, where the judge said, I'm not gonna impute income to her. Okay. The the the doctor makes a lot of money and he'll make more. Yeah. She's only gonna get, you know, it wasn't a particularly long marriage, it was about a 15-year marriage. You know, she's only gonna get maintenance for six years or whatever it was. You know, I'm not gonna make her go back to work. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Now she wants more.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, now she wants more for back in court. But yeah, you see, two different judges, two different attitudes, two totally different results. So knowing your judge is also something that you pay for. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

That's included in people's hourly rates. Okay. If you really want you to know how good a lawyer is, find out how well they know the judges and wherever you're practicing.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Not that we ever get an unfair advantage. No, it's not that they're they're it's I always think it's harder for judges to rule against you when they know you.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Exactly. Exactly. And it's it's that the whole idea is that you know their tendencies. Okay. You know which ones favor the wife, which ones favor the husband, which ones favor children, you know, and that. And it's it's not that you think they're gonna rule in your favor all the time. It's that you know You know, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

You know the G A L they're gonna pick, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Exactly. Yeah, you know if they want a psychiatric evaluation, you know the things that they want.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

So, you know You know how far we can push them.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah. And we're gonna ask the judges. We're gonna ask the judges now, you know, what they are looking for from the lawyers and from the litigants. So that'll be one of our next chapters, and I look forward to sharing that with you.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Me too.